21:02:48 From 104 004 649 : can't find the link here 21:02:59 From Kenneth Chance-Larsen : Is it me or is Ben on mute? 21:03:00 From Michael Rowe : ben will post it shortly 21:03:07 From Michael Rowe : ben's audio is fine ken 21:03:09 From Michael Rowe : it must be you 21:03:11 From Joanne Marley : I can hear ok 21:03:21 From Kenneth Chance-Larsen : It was me... 21:03:29 From Michael Rowe : it usually is, ken 21:03:39 From Kenneth Chance-Larsen : Hah! 21:04:29 From Ben Ellis : https://bit.ly/Practicalskillsonline 21:18:15 From U0022688 : is there anyone here from University of Northumbria? 21:19:01 From U0022688 : Because I have seen some videos from Northumbria prepared by students (CVR) and I think that they have some experience 21:20:22 From remco : The main reason why we dot use it is: How can you evaluate for instance the intensity, watching video only? 21:22:22 From José Luís Alves Sousa : I agree!!! Manual contacts are very dificult to evaluate on line 21:22:40 From Louisa Remedios : If we deconstruct the skills we want to assess - there are clearly some that can be assessed on video while other skills cannot be judged. We are thinking of splitting up what can be Ax now (communication - explanation/instructions; clinical reasoning…) and what will need to be assessed later (OPs, APS etc) . 21:22:44 From Michael Rowe : @remco: I think you're right in that we can't assess the finer details / quality of the techniques by video, but it at least allows you to get some of the way to the end point 21:22:45 From Dawn Knibbs : Previous years we have used pebblepad for students to create video logs of practical skills that students would submit for formative assessment ( as well as feedback in class). Student feedback was that they didn't like it ( was too much work) and would prefer more feedback in class -so we dropped it. Now I wish I had persevered ! 21:22:56 From Maria Paço : I have lost her tooo 21:23:34 From U0022688 : We had some concerns regarding health and safety assessment of "models" who may be available at home. We would usually risk assess students who would act as models when teaching face to face and could not do this for any potential models at home 21:24:20 From Kim Buchholtz : We have an exercise prescription module that we could do an online video assessment as much of it is about clinical reasoning and dosage but it would mean that all students need to live with someone who can model for them 21:24:23 From Michael Rowe : I think that breaking it the assessment up into different components is a good idea; communication by video, but Cx mobs (for e.g.) can be deferred to later 21:24:42 From remco : I think it can be useful in teaching but for assessing I think it is the entire package you want to asses, not just a part. So I make a distinction between teaching and assessing 21:24:58 From Craig Wassinger : Our accrediting body (in the US) requires teaching of manual skills in person. Just another consideration. 21:25:47 From Michael Rowe : @remco: Agreed. But what is the alternative in the current situation? 21:26:00 From remco : Postponing assessments… 21:26:09 From Alec Rickard : @Craig - do they actually specify that or is it assumed/implied, which would normally be the case here in the UK? 21:26:40 From Craig Wassinger : specifically state and this will not change in the current environment. to my knowledge 21:26:59 From Gisela Sole : Use videos for formative assessments, assess face-to-face for summative? 21:26:59 From Jessica Niski : @Craig - CAPTE has issued a statement that says faculty are "not prohibited from exploring a variety of ways to develop skills and assess for competence, including psychomotor skills" http://www.capteonline.org/uploadedFiles/CAPTEorg/Homepage/CAPTEResponsetoCOVID19.pdf 21:27:00 From Michael Rowe : In South Africa we're working on postponing as well but at some point we pass a bright line after which we don't have enough time left in the year. We don't think it's reasonable to fail everyone in that situation. 21:27:30 From Craig Wassinger : As usual, my knowledge is limited! 21:27:41 From remco : Well, at my uni we decided to postpone… 21:27:45 From Michael Rowe : @Jessica: Our HPCSA is also encouraging us to explore alternative perspectives on what "practical" and "clinical" looks like 21:27:58 From Jill Morgan : Safety goes beyond the person/model for me - the environment and equipment/space needs considering. The 'home' situation might not be somewhere that all students wish to expose to their educators/lecturers 21:28:36 From Ayyappan Jayavel : in India we are postpone the practical assessment. 21:28:52 From Michael Rowe : @jill: Great point. See this: https://anygoodthing.com/2020/04/06/a-reminder-of-who-is-hurt-by-insisting-that-students-share-images-of-their-personal-lives/ 21:28:56 From John Xerri de Caro : what do the students say? think? I am experiencing some student push back most especially wrt assessment .. they has asked for all assessments to be deferred to a ftf moment 21:29:04 From remco : Practicing on “home mates” or family lacks in depth peer assessment during practicing 21:29:42 From Joanne Marley : We are planning the same sort of scenario as Jill - live online assessment where they will ‘describe’ rather than demonstrate 21:30:12 From Seth O'Neill : Us too. We will talk through Assessment and treatment and discuss the CR components of it. 21:30:13 From Louisa Remedios : the approach may need to depend on the time of learning. For students early in their learning, we may be able to assess part of the skill but essential to look at whole skill later, but of course pre clinical. But assessment can continue to support/encourage learning - so a series of mini-online formative assessment may be useful at this time for our younger students. 21:30:33 From Jessica Niski : The cohort of students I am working with are on their last semester of on-campus work prior to clinicals. If we delay assessments until we can meet again in person, this will postpone their clinical experiences and ultimately graudation. 21:30:56 From Robyn Stiger : We are looking at doing something very similar Jill with our 1st year practical exams. 21:31:52 From Robyn Stiger : In Neuro, MSK and Respiratory. For neuro, they are going to talk through their reasoning in a recording. For MSK and resp they are going to do a case study with questions with an examiner 21:31:54 From Seth O'Neill : Jessica - Will they be able to go on placement currently? 21:32:20 From remco : Maybe we should make a difference between low stake assessments and high stake assessments. I would not like a student that a patient with insufficient skills. I don’t mind it if a first year student lacks some skilles 21:32:32 From Kenneth Chance-Larsen : We ave been given significant 'slack' from within the Uni to be flexible with assessment methods and how we can be creative with ensuring that learning outcomes are met. Practical aspects/skills that don't lend themselves to being self-videoed can be done either as skills test by clinical educator (on future clinical placement, when they again become available) or shoed into a future module. 21:32:34 From Jessica Niski : @Seth, we have delayed our spring placement to mid-July. We are not sure if that will still be feasible. 21:33:30 From Michael Rowe : @ken: we're also looking at creative options for this e.g. moving practical skills into clinical contexts, or other modules that we will run later in the programme 21:33:30 From Seth O'Neill : Our Uni are considering 3 options - normal recruitment in September. Delayed start (f2f) until January, worse case F2F September 2021 21:34:23 From Alec Rickard : At Plymouth, our 1st years have just finished a neuroMSK module just before lockdown and had managed to assess,. We are planning our cardioresp module to be online and for the students to be assessed via Zoom auscultating and doing the ACBT on themselves only, rather than requiring another, for inclusivity. They will then be questioned on their understanding and reasoniong of etc. 21:34:47 From Lesley McBride : We are also planning to teach our theoretical modules post Easter to our second year students and postpone their placements and practical exams to a later date. 21:34:48 From Tone Dahl-Michelsen : Good idea to move it into clinical placement @michaelrowe 21:35:19 From Seth O'Neill : @Lesley. Ours are off and we are bringing forward their later work. 21:35:51 From Gisela Sole : Michael, I think this is an opportunity to move at least some teaching of the skills/principles into clinical placements - immersed immediately in the clinical context. depends on how 'busy' the placements are and how much supervision/support the students get? 21:35:55 From Michael Rowe : We're also trying to front-load the rest of our first semester with theory (ends in June), and move the practical to later in the year. 21:36:24 From Tone Dahl-Michelsen : Follow your idea here 21:36:47 From Michael Rowe : @gisela: Considering that our health system is already on the verge of collapse, it will be interesting to see how this works re. supervision. 21:36:52 From Jill Morgan : In terms of moving practical skills in to placement then that is going to be really tricky with placements looking less and less like 'physio' placements in the UK for the forseeable future 21:37:10 From Craig Wassinger : From colleagues who regularly teach online, there is caution for having students physically practice without immediate feedback and guidance as this reinforces incorrect practice. 21:38:16 From remco : I hope that one realizes that practicing on students won’t do much harm but practicing at placement on real patients can definitely damage the patients…\ 21:38:17 From Michael Rowe : @Craig: Agreed that immediate feedback is better, but asynchronous can work fine if students can engage with the feedback. 21:39:12 From Craig Wassinger : @Mike: likely true and I don't have direct experience 21:39:45 From Michael Rowe : @remco: We assume that "students" are not independent and competent practitioners so don't have the same expectations with respect to what "practicing on patients" means 21:40:01 From Gisela Sole : Remco, I suggest that they would need to have achieved a certain level of skills prior to the placement. But we can expand on their 'floor' where it is safe, in clinical practice? 21:40:02 From Michael Rowe : for us, all student work on placement with patients is assumed to be practice 21:40:28 From Robyn Stiger : hand 21:40:28 From Dawn Knibbs : We have just completed some Semester 1 re-assessments (Neuro with normally a practical component). We removed the practical aspect and assessed via Google meets viva on movment analysis and clinical reasoning and intervention plan (theory) and will practical skills on pass/fail ' competency' on return to uni 21:40:44 From Joanne Marley : Yep, live approach for 1st years 21:42:13 From U0022688 : live approach for our vivas for 2nd years, this only assesses knowledge and clinical reasoning of acute assessments, they would then demonstrate practical skills at a later date 21:43:17 From Seth O'Neill : We are also going to try and complete formative prior to the proper exam 21:43:41 From Kim Buchholtz : How are the students responding to remote assessments? We have had some push back against online teaching, so I am not sure how willing they would be to be assessed online 21:44:02 From U0022688 : must be nice to have some definitive answers on time @Joanne, we are still in vague terms at the moment 21:44:02 From remco : @Michael: Our students have their placements at 3rd and 4th year. The are expected to master the skills and use the placement for clinical reasoning, deciding what skill to use. 21:44:19 From U0022688 : Hand up 21:44:42 From Diane Roadarmel : Using a telehealth type approach where the student is the therapist and must demonstrate and instruct the "instructor - patient" on some more basic skills,answer questions, correct compensations 21:44:59 From remco : @Giselle: I agree, and the assessment to determine that level is live. 21:45:55 From Claire McFeeters : we have had the opposite.. students wanting to have teaching and assessment go ahead online (practical skill based module) as to not impact their final year further 21:46:08 From Seth O'Neill : Is anyone working towards other start dates? i.e. January or even September 2021? 21:46:40 From Jill Morgan : I think its quite hard to get real feedback from students since those who are engaging with the online teaching are clearly able to access the tech. It is the ones who aren't involved that we can't communicate with effectively so I worry that they won't be able to get the most out of online assessment for the same tech barriers 21:46:44 From Lesley McBride : We have just moved our pre reg masters course to a January start 21:46:56 From Katy Pedlow : We have been embedding a lot of practice of the technology / format during the teaching to ensure they are used to it before the exam. 21:47:02 From Alec Rickard : @Seth: that is being considered as back-up for our first years (delay a year), but the feeling is defintitely need to continue with existing students 21:47:18 From Lesley McBride : We have given a blanket 2 week extension 21:47:49 From Seth O'Neill : @alec, definitely but the uni are considering options across the board. Just wondering if any other exec committees are considering it. 21:47:55 From Robyn Stiger : hand 21:49:31 From Kenneth Chance-Larsen : My Uni (bless it) bought 300 laptops to lend to students without one. And internet dongles. 21:49:48 From Alec Rickard : @Lesley: we have an automatic extension for submitted assessments, but not for "attended" ones, e.g. presentations/viva/OSCE 21:50:04 From remco : Students can borrow laptops for assessments. 21:50:24 From Jill Morgan : @Michael I think there are many of those students out there. They are at significant risk by our assumptions. 21:50:34 From Seth O'Neill : Nightmare without internet and laptops. We lucklily supply students with ipads 21:50:43 From Carron Gordon : Our final year students have 1 more clinical rotation (320 hours) to do before they graduate. Our university is not allowing any students from health professions programmes into the clinics for the rest of the year. Any suggestions on how we could address this situation so they don't graduate with insufficient clinical hours? 21:51:01 From Alec Rickard : @remco - that only works if they can collect the laptops etc. #lockdown! 21:51:05 From Louisa Remedios : are students being provided with dongles by uni to manage this problem? 21:51:20 From Manar Jaber : I have the same situation ; some students don’t have laptop or a shared laptop among their sibling. In addition to the internet connection; 21:52:00 From Joanne Marley : We have similar scenario Seth 21:52:44 From Seth O'Neill : @carron - where in the world are you? 21:52:58 From Joanne Marley : What about an oral exam over telephone? Or does it not work for the specifics of the exam? 21:52:59 From remco : @carron: I am a member of the examination board here. We allowed a little drop back in hours (25% of the total of two rotations or 50% of one rotation). If that is not met we don’t issue a diploma, so the free delayed. We need to protect the minimum competence of graduated pt’s. 21:53:02 From Sónia Lopes : @Carron we also have the same problem, and some ideas would be great 21:53:10 From Seth O'Neill : @carron, I would speak with your professional body 21:53:11 From Lesley McBride : @carron the CSP are allowing our students with 900 hours to graduate - and keeping note of hours done volunteering to add to their clinical experience. 21:53:49 From U0022688 : @Carron Gordon we have had a small number of hours (3 days) allocated to some of our students to carry out a meaningful real life project (on a problem posed by our Occupational Health Department) where students are asked to research ergonomics relating to working at home. The materials here will be evaluate, fed back upon and supplied to Occ health to circulate to our staff who are working from home. could a number of such projects be a solution to some of your remaining hours? 21:53:56 From John Xerri de Caro : Thank you, gn 21:54:04 From Alec Rickard : @Carron: the whole situation needs us to consider if previously agreed to standards are absolutely necessary, such as hours. Can other things apply, e.g. attendance at mandatory training such as BLS/CPR, any voluntary activities? 21:54:18 From remco : @Alec: I agree. But we don’t have a full lockdown here. Students can make an appointment to pick up a laptop 21:54:31 From Robyn Stiger To Michael Rowe(Privately) : I empathise completely. My parents are in Zimbabwe. I was born in South Africa. I know what you are dealing with. It's very hard. 21:54:33 From Manar Jaber : So what I do is to choose a time that would work with all … Regarding Internet I am using MEET , which allow recording and go directly to google drive that’s shared with the students. I also do some online quizzes as way to test their understanding .. but I open it to answer within extended time 21:56:21 From Michael Rowe To Robyn Stiger(Privately) : Thanks, Robyn. Didn't know you were from Zim. Hope all is OK with your parents. Seems like crazy times from what we hear in the news. 21:56:50 From Lesley McBride : We are doing the same as this @robyn for some of our masters students 21:56:51 From Louisa Remedios : given the difficulty in making a graded judgement - should we be thinking satisfactory/unsatisfactory grading at this point 21:57:24 From stephen Lungaro-Mifsud : Thank you for this meet. Stay safe. G'Nite 21:57:28 From Louisa Remedios : Unsatisfactory meaning - just a bit more time to get there 21:57:44 From Alec Rickard : @Louisa: you still have to have criteria for that and a judgement, but I get your point 21:58:03 From Craig Wassinger : We are planning to use incompletes for many papers 21:58:15 From Claire McFeeters To Michael Rowe(Privately) : hi michael- would a telephone assessment be appropriate? 21:58:19 From Louisa Remedios : designing criteria at this time will be the major challenge 21:58:40 From Joanne Marley To Michael Rowe(Privately) : Would oral exams via telephone be an option - probably not ideal but it is our back up if technology fails… 21:58:44 From Claire McFeeters To Michael Rowe(Privately) : given the unprecedented circumstances 21:58:56 From Michael Rowe To Claire McFeeters(Privately) : cellphone rates are savage here, would be very expensive for students (very few have landlines) 21:59:32 From Claire McFeeters To Michael Rowe(Privately) : impossible situation for your students. I wish you the best in your endeavour for your students best interests 21:59:36 From remco : Try to do the best we can but not at any cost… 22:00:34 From Michael Rowe To Joanne Marley(Privately) : might be possible joanne, but cellphone rates very high here, would be prohibitively expensive for us to do this at scale 22:00:49 From Robyn Stiger : we are using our original criteria for 1st years 22:01:05 From Michael Rowe To Claire McFeeters(Privately) : Thanks. Will do what we can. 22:01:06 From Joanne Marley To Michael Rowe(Privately) : A real challenge for you guys Michael… 22:01:15 From Robyn Stiger : 3rd years don't need to be practically assessed, so we aren't modifying these, but have modified all of our other 3rd year assessments 22:01:21 From Seth O'Neill : G:Nite all :-) 22:01:30 From Kenneth Chance-Larsen : Thanks Ben and Michael for making this happen. And thanks all for taking part, good night/day. 22:01:37 From Katy Pedlow : Thanks everyone 22:01:41 From Ayyappan Jayavel : thank you all. GN 22:01:41 From Claire McFeeters : thanks Ben and everyone 22:01:43 From Sónia Lopes : Thank you so much!!!